What happened today in the Court was so unbelievably awful. It hits home about how vulnerable those of us who work in law-enforcement related, or law-related fields are....that Judge seemed like such a wonderful person...I just feel so bad for his family and for those of the Court reporter and the Deputy. It just makes me so thankful for the blessings I have in life.... Even in the midst of excitement about an upcoming cruise, all of this reminds me of life's basic fragility and of the uglier things out there in this world.

Liz, this has been one crazy news week! Sometimes, I just have to turn the channel when I can't take anymore.
My heart goes out to the families of those affected by this latest tragedy.

Karen, LOL---me too!!! When it gets like this, I go to the FOOD CHANNEL, LOL, and settle in to watch Emeril, Paula Dean, Rachael Ray, etc....we have to escape after awhile....

Two courtroom incidents in one week. Unbelievable. Down here law enforcement is not allowed to carry (openly) a weapon into the courthouse, you must put it in a locker. Makes no sense. I always carry mine in my bag, not particularily easy access, but beats the alternative. Anyone who spends anytime in a courthouse knows the halls are full of low-lifes and nuts.
On a lighter note, I love Rachael "E-V-O-O" Ray and Paula Dean, and all things Food related!

This could be a whole new topic! I love the food channel! I am fascinated by "Good Eats" (must be the geek in me), Paula Dean cooks the best fattening food and I love when Rachael Ray eats on a budget in a city I am planning on visiting :)

My brother is a parole officer in NJ and he and his union have been fighting for the right to carry guns into court. Wonder why? And why wasn't that guy shackled? UHG!!! I do believe some procedures will be changing everywhere.

This is just horrible. I used to live in Atlanta and, although I don't know anyone involved, I know several lawyers and legal secretaries whom I am sure know some of the players.

AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T CAUGHT THE GUY!!!!

Oh yes, this could get waaaaay off topic. We will hopefully be in a new house in 4-5 yrs. and all I do is watch those shows and salivate over their kitchens. I fantasize about all gas, double oven, confection oven, warming drawer, two sinks, wine cabinet, pull out cabinets, I could go on and on. I refuse to re-do our kitchen, I'm holding out for the new house. I don't know if I'll make it :D :D I'm watchig Chef on a Shoestring on the CBS early show right now. I suppose I should get on with my day

The Atlanta killer surrendered today by waving a white T shirt. Thanks to God, the worst is over and our prayers must be with the surviving families.

Ok, Karen and Kimmi---we HAVE to start a Food Channel topic, LOL.

I'm addicted to that channel...love E.V.O.O Rachael, Emeril, Paula (so fattening), Good Eats, Food 911 (I think Tyler is WAY too cute, LOL)....it's pathetic, really....I can spend a whole Saturday watching, plus many evenings (and sometimes, ok, I confess, when I'm home telecommuting......)

Kimmi--your future kitchen sounds AWESOME.... what fun you'll have planning it!!!!

Also, Kimmi--regarding the law enforcement stuff in Court--I'm in Court (mostly Dependency, sometimes Juvi Probation or Criminal) all the time to testify, and our Deputies always lock up their guns when they go to lock up to get a prisoner. But we've been evacuated various times--bomb threats, once a guy snuck a knife in somehow...On a daily basis ranting/raving nut-cases are dragged out by deputies. I once had a client make a real threat on my life---she had a planned out scenario to drop me with a drive-by shooting...I had to have security walk me to and from my office building for several months. Lovely world, huh???

Well, thank God they got this guy. Guess they'll be re-thinking their security procedures down there..... how awful for everyone involved.

As a resident/taxpayer in Atlanta/Fulton Co. for 35 years, I am outraged (and I've calmed down some) at the incompetence of the Sheriff's Dept. and subsequently, other agencies in this whole thing. Why was a 51 yr old female deputy the only person with this man? On Wed., they found 2 concealed homemade knives in his shoes! On Thurs., the judge asked for more security! Yesterday PM, the prosecutor said "he'd never been violent before!" What about the crime he was on trial for?

After he carjacked the car from the reporter in a garage, and they put out the all-region APB for the car, why did no one double-check the garage? It was found in same garage at 11PM last night. With all the agencies involved, including the FBI, why didn't someone think of that? Lots of wasted time.

Then to learn this AM of another murder, of a federal agent innocently working on his home under construction!

I'm certainly happy this person was finally apprehended, but have to be honest and say I wish the outcome hadn't been so peaceful for him! To think of all the lives he has affected just makes me sick!

Hi, another Kathy...tell us what it was like, there in Atlanta....how incredible that this guy walks in behind a regular citizen into her own apartment...

and yes, I agree, that it's questionable how they could have allowed a man with a known history of already having shanks, to be alone with a smaller woman, and just her and her holstered gun. When I saw him today, towering over everyone else around him, I really thought about that. Especially with his history.

I posted to Kimmi already that in my Court out here in SoCal, the Deputies always lock up their guns BEFORE going down to get a "customer" from lock up. What a terrible tragedy. It just makes me sick.

Working with Court Deputies as closely as I do, I feel really awful that one was killed and that the one in the room with him was so badly injured. It's a struggle in a case like this to remain neutral or dispassionate and let the law do its job....I can't imagine how you all in Atlanta must have felt, knowing he was on the loose. Incredible!!!!

I would say the fault lies with more than the Sheriff's Office. It seem like (and this is IMHO) court Dep. many times are older, and going out on a limb to say, not as well trained. As with any job, you become complacent. No one should EVER accompany a prisoner alone. It is a two person job, no if’s and’s or but’s. When that person becomes “yours” you pat him down again. I don’t care if he was in the custody of 10 cops before you and they all say they checked him. You check for yourself. And never without a partner. Checking your weapon while transporting or dealing w/a prisoner is a given. You never have it on you. Too many variables, they could get it from you, etc. Again, the reason for a two-person rule. In fact, if they are high-risk, you have more, as many as you need. It happens to everyone at some point, complacency. Even more of a reason to have frequent training, to pound it in your head that you aren’t invincible. Most of our court dep. here are older men and women, it’s a less stressful position, and many go there at the end of their careers. They lose sight of the fact that they are dealing w/ the same criminals that they once dealt with on the street with much vigilance. Very sad. I know I am guilty of it. But, I should be more thankful that I am part of a very progressive agency that has, what seems like, constant trainings (I curse them when they interfere with my schedule). We have state of the art equipment and they are very serious about officer safety. Most sheriff's offices are huge, their trainings may not be as frequent, etc. My heart goes out to the Dep. and her family.

Kimmi-I absolutely agree with everything you've said. I can't understand why a Deputy moving someone in custody would have a gun on them---that just isn't DONE here. Our Deputies DO go alone, however, and I've always wondered about that. Also, I agree, most of our Court baliffs are older people and they DO get complacent. Most of the morning is spent handling the Court calendar, calling in witnesses and joking with investigators, L.E., hearing officers and court staff. Then, they have to get up to go get someone in lock up and they probably DO forget that they're dealing with the same people who are out on the street. The main difference is that in Dependency Court, all prisoners/inmates are always handcuffed and sometimes, fully shackeled--there's no jury, so it doesn't matter. EVEN so, care is taken, or should be. All it takes is one minute of inattention. And also, since our deputies DO wear their guns, any other nut-case (i.e. not a lock up) could easily attempt a grab. It's a risky world out there in the trenches, no matter how you look at it. We can minimize risks by better training, etc., but there's always the unexpected that slams you from left field....

Kimmi,

I'm very glad to know that you are with an organization with brains! and appreciate the very difficult job you do. Sadly, the Fulton Co. Sheriff's Dept has been a scandal for years. The previous sheriff was replaced by the governor last year for numerous things, prisoners walking out of jail, losing millions of $ in a "risky" investment scheme,etc. Don't know if you saw current sheriff on TV, very defensive, saying he'd only been in office 2 months, was concentrating on jail problems. But, he came from the GBI so , in my opinion, should have had a "Big Picture" outlook. I fear he's not qualified but hope this never happens again. He's appointing a task force. That's the thing that's so frustrating; it was preventable!

I'm just a civilian and my last experience down there was last fall one day for jury duty. If I recall correctly, all the deputies had guns in the courthouse and yes, I would say

the attitude was a bit casual. Those I was involved with were fairly young and nice to the jury pool; now I wonder if they had any "street experience."

This guy did not just have escape on his mind, obviously, as after he overpowered deputy and took her gun, he crossed a bridge from 1 bldg. to the other, to kill judge and court reporter!

Liz,
I appreciate your input to all this; the job you do is a dfficult one. Shackles sound good to me! Living with the situation was not that traumatic personally; I did go out Fri. afternoon and noticed traffic was not quite normal. However, where the federal ICE agent was killed was about 2.5 miles from where we live. I, perhaps foolishly, thought the guy would have been trying to leave town.

Thanks for letting me vent and I hope no one goes through this kind of debacle anytime soon!

another kathy, I can understand the outrage you have, especially after listening to that sheriff. Was he the one who had trouble getting words out in the beginning? It was painful to listen to him, and then when he started making excuses...well, that department is going to be pummelled now in the media for their mishandling of the gunman, especially since they had found those shanks on Wednesday.

In my courthouse, the main judge (there are only two, and one domestic master)is very tuned in to threats, and has limited entry access to 2 doors, manned by deputies with metal detectors, but no way a crazy nutcase couldn't get through and do what this guy did. I'm hoping that this case will be the cause of lots of change around the country from now on, for all the policies that our "professional law enforcement" friends have noted above.

Olivia--I had the same reaction to the Sheriff's inability to articulate...it was almost painful to watch him struggle...there is almost certainly going to be an intensive investigation....bottom line, I cannot imagine a Courtroom allowing a person in custody to be alone with a Deputy who ALSO had a holstered gun....quite incredible.

The layman in me tells me that the gun those deputy sheriffs wear is a necessity for defense. But what you and Kimmie are saying is far different, and it makes a lot of sense.

Yes, that was the sheriff.

gf--locking the gun up before getting a prisoner from lock up is designed to prevent this sort of thing from happening. I think in a criminal Court where cuffs ARE taken off, there should be 2 Deputies there....someone on one of the cable channels was saying that....you'd think especially with a guy that big, who, only the day before had shanks in his shoes!!!

The latest.......

http://www.pulsejournal.com/business/content/shared/news/nation/stories/03/0314_COURT_CAMERA.html

:ohmy:

I just can’t wait to see the over-reaction in our own courthouse. There were a lot of mistakes made in Fulton, and like my wife said the first being complacent.
The Fulton County Sheriff’s office is an accredited agency, meaning that all of their procedures are nationally certified. (Actually they are the same as my agency, NYPD, LAPD etc..) I can guarantee you when they were getting certified none of those procedures were displayed. They are acting like we now have to train law enforcement on gun retention. I can assure you that the deputies were trained in gun retention, they just stopped, practicing basic safety measures. This is a problem everywhere in law enforcement, where I work as well.
I hate the whole “elected Sheriff system” in this country. Anyone can run and win with money, no matter how incompetent. I worked narcotics in the Atlanta area in the 80’s, our team actually bought drugs from the Douglas County Sheriff himself. The position should by appointed.
I guess I’m just really mad at the situation. An innocent police officer (The customs Agent David Wilhelm) and others were murdered. The deputies in the court who violated the policies should be fired and have their certificates yanked. The Sheriff should step down. I know I sound hard but this is a hard business.
John

John,

Thank you for the difficult jobs both you and Kimmi do. You're absolutely right, it's a hard job when everything is done properly. As frustrated as I am, I can imagine that that you are doubly so!

You are so right about electing sheriffs. evidently no qualifications necessary. There were 9 running' the ppaper did profiles, some had convictions! The 2 in the runoff were the "cleanest," whatever that meant. I was wrong that this guy came from the GBI, he was with the State Patrol and DMV. BUT, if they were appointed, no guarantees they'd be qualified then either!

I just wish the federal prosecution would be the first one as the Fulton Co. DA is no bright bulb either!

John, a hearty agreement from me!!!! The only thing I would add about that particular Deputy getting lax about gun retention is that it should have been obvious that on the day AFTER the guy was found with shanks in his shoes, they should have had a clue and not allowed him to be alone with any one Deputy, especially considering how big and strong he was.

I agree that the problem is not with the training but with the individual officer/deputy who gets casual about such issues (and the agency that doesn't carefully enough oversee issues like that). My second husband was a cop (Juvi Detective---we met on a case, LOL), and was also an FTO for his department....he was always upset about how casual some of the officers with more time on got about gun retention and other safety stuff.... Wish you and Kimmi were coming to the brunch so I could meet you guys. I take it personally whenever a cop, from any jurisdiction of L.E., anywhere, is killed...especially when the whole situation could have been avoided.

Today's paper says the deputy put her gun in lockbox; he got it by unlocking with her keys after he overpowered her. Don't know where this came from, maybe video which no one was waching when it occurred?!? She has no memory of incident, has some brain damage and has been transferred to a rehab center for therapy.

I didn't know that. But still, the problem is the same, I don't think it changes the issue of complacency that led to the risk....and he shouldn't have been alone with her!! It's so amazing the ripple effect that occurs from one minute of inattention or improper procedure....

Agree 100%, Liz!!

When you think about it, people's lives were changed forever because of that one moment of inattention. All the way across Atlanta, the ICE agent was minding his own business, working on his house....how amazing. Oh, BTW, what did you think of that woman and the way she handled being held hostage. She's amazing.

I agree with everyone here that the Atlanta tragedy is just horrendous and that there are some HUGE changes that need to be made to the system there and probably many other courts. But on the other hand, it just occurred to me that while on several occassions I have made it a point to thank our men and women in the military for their service to our country, I have never thanked those of you in the law enforcement and related fields, firefighters and emergency/1st responders, etc. for your service to our communities and country. I've always held all of you in very high regard. Let me take this opportunity to thank Kimmi, John (Mr. Kimmi), Liz and everyone else who serve and protect us!!!! You are all very brave, selfless and dedicated souls. What on earth would we all do without you!!!! :app: :app: :app:

Hear, hear. What Cyndi said - my deepest thanks to all of you in the 1st responder/law enforcement community.

Masaki

Thanks to you, Cyndi and Masaki for words of recognition---CPS people get the worst of it---can't win for losing. Either we are baby-snatchers who unfairly take loving parents' children away, or we are incompetent idiots who let at-risk children languish and die, even, in dangerous homes. Unfortunately, there ARE some truly scary CPS social workers out there---incomopetent, lazy, or both. Their cases always make the headlines.

I'm not in that "front" line anymore--I'm like a detective---I do a full investigation on a case that's recently entered the Dependency system, to help the Court determine whether or not there are sustainable facts in the petition allegations, and, if so, to determine a Dispositional plan for the case.

But whether you are up front or in investigations, the job is enormously difficult, complex AND, at times, very dangerous. The majority of our "client" population are meth-heads, felons (with long records involving violence), sex offenders, gang bangers, meth-cookers, drug dealers, seriously psychotic mental patients....and we go in and out of their homes in situations where they are VERY unhappy with us, yet we're not allowed to carry guns.

Our union has been lobbying for awhile for the County to supply us with bulletproof vests....several workers have been shot at, or caught in gang crossfire. One colleague was stuffed into the trunk of his car and left there all weekend after being pistol-whipped. They didn't find him until the office opened on Monday and his field itinerary identified the area where he'd gone last. He was in pretty bad shape.

Quite a few workers have been assaulted both in the field and in the office. After one particularly bad assault, all regional offices were equipped with panic buttons and video security monitoring systems, along with armed security guards. Prior to that, there was nothing, for years.

I was once chased out of a house by a nut-case whose arrest record included a conviction for assaulting a police officer with a machete.....she chased me out of her house. I went into a neighboring house to use the phone, and the woman kicked in the front door of that house, burst in there and chased me out of there......

another woman tried to shut me in a basement I went to check out (where, apparently, she was hiding a ton of illegal aliens...). I sternly commanded her to open the door and advised her that if I didn't report back to the office within 15 minutes, the Sheriff's dept. would be there quickly. She opened the door, I left, GOT a few deputies, and it was a great bust (she was also commiting all kinds of serious welfare fraud)....

A lot of our workers are out-stationed in police agencies or Sheriff's divisions, and they have it the best b/c it's easier for them to get a couple of officers and a black and white on short notice. We also have a huge team that does nothing else than go on meth raids, as there are almost always children in meth-lab houses. I was going to join that team, but decided I didn't want to be on constant call 24/7. Those workers DO get bulletproof vests and raid jackets.

Well, I'm rambling....few people realize how much risk there is in CPS work. :eek:

Liz - Wow! And I thought I had some rough days at work. Puts things in perspective. You be careful out there and thanks again for being there for for us!!

Cyndi--thanks. And speaking of that, I need to get off LCT, get in the shower and get rolling, LOL.....it's a cloudy wet day up here (I'm sure it is down there, too), and I'd really LOVE to just stay in this warm house and hang out on LCT all day, LOL. :(

Liz - I'm with you. It is raining down here. I just was not mentally ready for another storm. But at least the hills in the canyon behind my house are green, green, green - beautiful!

Liz - scary! Be safe out there!

Masaki

Cyndi---ditto here. I'm nestled right up in the undeveloped foothills of the Santa Ana Mountains--Cleveland Nat'l Forest, so no developers can touch it, LOL. And they are SOOOOOOOOOO green. It is beautiful. And on a day like today, the clouds hover right on the tops of the hills, so the view is really exceptional. However, I'd like to see the sun for longer than 1-2 days in a row.

Masaki--thanks--I'm ALWAYS aware of being safe...better to to be too cautious than heedless of such issues. It was stupid of me to go into that basement alone.....never made a mistake like that again. See my post in INtroductions about those of us on the SPIN cruise hooking up w/you guys in Hawaii.