Hey, George,

Are you able to eat those fava beans and sip a nice Chianti through that muzzle? :D

Of course, Clarice!

I mean, Denise.

george

So glad to hear that the muzzle seems to be working for Stewie.

George, you crack me up!

I can't see the picture, George!!

edited to say - ok, it's back. :)

Masaki

Marnalou - I am so happy you have more options available to you.Keep us informed. As you must realize we are a community of animal lovers here.

Wes, your liver treat sounds like a dog's delight!

Priscilla, you said it well. It's a wonderful gift.

MarnaLou

So happy to hear that Stewie is now able to resume all his park activities!! Glad the muzzle is working...

Cats are very complicated. Is Shadow the oldest cat or the "middle cat"? I have some experience with feline dominance/hierarchy issues (though I'm certainly not a feline behavioral expert).

Shadow's the oldest cat. We tried to keep him in his own room when we were gone or asleep once he started to spray. In the past, he's peed on my pillow a couple of times (while I was sleeping!), in our laundry basket, futon. The list goes on and on. Cat urine has such a distinctive smell. Thank goodness for Nature's Miracle. Since we've moved into our new place, his main target is the sink in the laundry room where there litter boxes are. He's on medicine and it seems to have cut down the episodes but he still surprises us every few weeks.

Any ideas Lawrence?

Sorry, didn't feel to steal Stewie's thread!

Amanda, please don't worry about diverting Stew's thread. He doesn't mind. I am sorry you're having this situation and I'd be interested to know what can be done about it. We love Nature's Miracle, too, and my husband bought me one of those compact Bissell carpet cleaners the other day (what a guy!!). It does a fabulous job for spot cleaning and is only slightly annoying to use. I wish we'd gotten it the day we brought Stewart home.

It's amazing that we do as well as we do when we bring another species into our lives. Learning to speak each other's languages is certainly a challenge at times. I would think that there would be cat behaviorists out there.

MarnaLou

No Pet owner should be withot Nature's Miracle!!!
I've owned cats (and dogs) all my life. IMO, Cats are far more intelligent than dogs and harder to figure out! Dogs strive to please their owners and are trainable....cats, being so independent, just want to outwit us and drive us crazy...always with the last word! They want us WHEN THEY WANT US on their terms!

Amanda, Cats are extremely sensitive to issues of territory and dominance. Are the 2 other cats female and younger? Older male cats are easily threatened by male cats of similar age but not usually by cats that are significantly younger (about 2 years or more in separation). In contrast, older female cats just beat up younger female cats and have an easier time dealing with competition. If the other cats are near in age to Shadow, then they all might be having problems sorting out who is dominant in certain areas. Male cats will spray in order to demonstrate their place in the hierarchy.

Cats oftentimes carve out different niches if they are close in age and of the same gender. For example, Cat A will be dominant in Rooms X and Y while Cat B may be dominant in Room X when Cat A is not present but Cat C is present and dominant in Room Z, etc. It can get really complicated. If the other cats are female and close in age to Shadow, they will try to exert dominance. This is generally ok if the cats all entered the house at similar times.

However, if Shadow was there for a long time before, he'll have a hard time adjusting to the fact that female cats of similar age always dominate. I'm sorry if this isn't clear - it's late and I'll try to do a little more research to see if there's a more linear explanation.

As an anthropologist once said, if aliens came to earth and just observed us, they'd assume that the cats and dogs were the rulers. After all, we walk them or clean their litter, feed them, spoil them rotten, play with them when they demand it, etc.

Amanda,

I presume you have had his urinary tract health checked out. Male cats, especially neutered ones, are very prone to this. And one of the signs is peeing in strange places, like the bathtub or sink.

Just a thought. I lost a young male that way once.

Thanks for the help everyone, especially Lawrence. Yes, you did make sense.

Shadow did get checked out and his urine and blood work was fine. Ashley is a female kitty a year younger than Shadow and Shadow likes to be her big brother and clean her. It eventually goes to chomping and then she runs away. Ahi is 2 years younger than Shadow and is a boy. Sweet but clueless. I think the problem started when we introduced the boys. Usually, the new cat would run away from Shadow but Ahi stood his ground which threw Shadow off and SHADOW ran away.

We had had another cat, Haupia, who suddenly passed away after we had had him for a year. He and Shadow got along really well. Ahi is actually Haupia's nephew but Ahi doesn't let Shadow groom him, another part of the problem.

Marna Lou, do you have a Bissell Green Machine? That's what we have as well. Along with Spot Shot, Resolve, etc. Our cabinet is full of spot cleaners for those hairballs!

And I echo the thanks for all the suggestions! It's so nice that everyone's concerned about our kittycat! And sorry to MarnaLou about going off topic on your thread. (we do it so well)

Wendy - that was our first concern as well - worried about cystitis. But per our vet, his lab work all looked OK and she was convinced that it was behavioral in origin as well.

Masaki

Amanda, yes it's one of those but just for small areas. I leave the big carpet cleaning jobs to the experts. But this little baby does a great job, I think I'll clean the back of the station wagon where Stewart rides with it. It heats the water and everything.

Bottom line is that we don't get pets because they help us keep our houses clean, do we?

MarnaLou

MarnaLou - No by Daisy, my Cairn has a habit of barking at dust. Every afternoon when the sun comes through the windows, in the light beams you can see the dust motes. She stalks them and barks at the dust. It's very entertaining. Does it with the light from lamps too.

Yup, I think this is it. When cats let other cats groom them, it's a sign that they're pretty closely bonded. Cats are very sensitive to the loss of housemates (other pets and more importantly humans) and this can sometimes cause anxiety. Throw in the fact that Ahi, a younger male cat, stood his ground to Shadow, and I think the source of the problem is pretty clear. It's all anxiety/loss of confidence. Are there any vets specializing in animal behavior near by? They can prescribe a feline dose of sertraline HCL (aka Zoloft) that does wonders on feline anxiety. Works on dogs' separation anxiety too. They really are little people, aren't they? :)

Random comment: pet health is one of the most profitable insurance and pharma products. Pfizer's cardio-vascular and CNS franchises are much balleyhooed but their animal health division is actually more profitable given the substantially lower R&D and SG&A...

I have tried everything on the market for "pet stains". "Capture" is the best stuff I have found. It is a powder. Great stuff!

Well one of my two left us a wet spot on the bed as we were heading there last night. All the excitement around here and someone (Daisy or Gizmo) was marking their spot. Created 5 loads of laundry while I am already trying to prepare for 35 guests tonight for an open house! I wouldn't have made a big deal, except we had major remodelling done this year and we will have our friends wanting to go upstairs and through our bedroom to see the new bathroom. Anyone want a Cairn Terrier or Lhasa Apso ? (just kidding)

Lawrence - I hear you and your thinking/reasoning on this matter matches ours. Our initial attempt was to see if any vet would be willing to prescribe fluoxetine (Prozac) for Shadow since we thought also that it would be fairly effective given the reading on the matter that we had done. However, we couldn't find a vet that was comfortable with doing so, so here we are now with our cat on valium. :) Maybe we'll ask our vet again about the SSRI (serotonin-specific reuptake inhibitor - class of psychiatric medication that Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, and others belong to).

Masaki

Whenever I am away (cruising), Mousie my cat hears a female voice on the answering machine and rushes to the sound. When I'm home she pays no attention to any message. Does this mean she misses me?

Sheri, where do you buy Capture? Petco?

MarnaLou

MarnaLou,

I buy Capture at the carpet store.

Betty

Thanks, Betty. It's on my list.

MarnaLou

Amanda & Masaki - A couple of thoughts about Shadow's "inappropriate urination" problem. You might want to look into a session or two with a really good animal behaviorist (or is it "behavioralist"?) who is experienced in dealing with kitties. Several years ago, our dear kitty, Yuri, began to use the oriental rug by the front door instead of the litter box. A session at our house with Martha Norwalk, who can communicate quite uncannily with animals, brought out a couple of key issues: First, Yuri was being bullied in the litter box room by another of our cats and therefore chose to stay away from that room; and second, the two litter boxes in that room were no sufficiently large for our four cats. I had a series of good talks with Yuri and with the bully-kitty (Sergei); and we changed to two larger litter boxes. Yuri has not made a "mistake" since that day. Thus, you may want to look at a number of factors. First, is one of the cats bullying Shadow? If so, in addition to talking both to that cat and to Shadow about the bullying, you might consider some calming drugs for the bully-cat, such as OvaBan. You should try to convince Shadow that he can bop the other cat if that cat bothers him. Also, look at your litter box layout. Does is give enough litter space to all the cats? Does it have good escape routes (ours did not until we removed the beautiful privacy screen which we had set up around the litter boxes)? Another good enzyme product (which we used to buy by the case when we had a little Bichon Frise who did not know the meaning of house-breaking) is Simple Solution, available at Petco and other such pet supply houses. Good luck with Shadow. Isn't is wonderful how we put such silly things as carpets and furniture quite secondary to the companionship of our dear little furry kids?? Cheers, Fred

Fred, 'behavioralist' isn't in my dictionary, but a lot of people use it so maybe it's coming into acceptance.

Amanda and Masaki, I just remembered something I heard about cats, and that is that you should have as many litter boxes as you have cats plus one.

MarnaLou

I have learned to tune into my pets with some degree of accuracy??....after enough trial and error, we eventually come close!
Masaki, maybe it's us... the pet owners... that require the Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa,etc.?? (at least in our home!)

Fred - those are some good ideas and we have tried modifying the areas around the litterboxes to accomodate him. But at one point, the problem was continuing even when he was isolated to one room with his own litter box. Shadow is the alpha cat in our house even though he doesn't seem to realize it at times. The other 2 cats will run away from him when he starts pouncing them. No other cat is bullying him in any way.

MarnaLou - we have heard that as well. We'd have to find space for another 2 litter boxes in the house. :) We have 2 LARGE litter boxes as is ....

Marcie - very true. If Amanda and I were taking the Prozac, we'd probably not care about the fact that he was peeing in the laundry sink. :D

Masaki

Masaki,

You can train a cat to use the toilet. I did that years ago with the last cat I had. Put saran wrap over the toilet bowl but not over the seat. Put some flushable litter on the saran wrap and show the cat the litter. When they start using it for the litter box eventually you can remove the litter and the saran. Don't flush the saran.

Kathy - we were thinking about this too but the only toilet that was available for the cats to access would be the powder room toilet which also serves as the guest toilet. Not sure if it would be a welcome surprise for guests to find cat "business" waiting for them in the toilet. Now if we could train the cats to FLUSH the toilet too, that might be workable ... :)

Masaki

I hear you on that one, Masaki. That was always an issue for us, too, when we had multiple cats. There just aren't a lot of places in a house to put such an item.

It sounds like you have thought of and tried everything and that Shadow is just a sprayer.

MarnaLou

Masaki wrote:
" it would be a welcome surprise for guests to find cat "business waiting for them in the toilet."

I am laughing so hard, I am crying.

Yes, that is the case with Cats that are Toilet Trained....it is funny, but, heck it beats litter everywhere and the scent that goes with it.

Funny this post went to the Cats,,,,,usually things "go to the dogs"

I am still interested in how MarnaLou's Stew is doing. I have a dog who definitely needs a behaviorist from what I have read on this thread. Fortunately he is very small and has few teeth. I think I will just chalk it up to personality for now. Dogs can really be strange acting animals.

MarnaLou - we've more or less resigned ourselves to it. He's a very lovable cat otherwise and his pluses definitely outweight the minuses. As long as it doesn't get worse and he continues to spray only in the laundry sink, we'll be OK (though I'm encouraged to try the SSRI idea once again with our vet).

Kathy - if it was OUR toilet, we wouldn't care as much and you're right about the smell and litter everywhere.

Karen - :D

Olivia - me too! MarnaLou - any updates?

Masaki

Well, the news is mixed. Stewie accepts the muzzle and wears it at the dog park but I suspect it makes him feel vulnerable (which isn't hard to imagine) because he seems to growl a lot more with it on than off. But he is also becoming very responsive to our directives to 'leave it' when he picks up an item that, without the muzzle, could be a bone (ha ha) of contention. So I hope that we are shaping him to avoid sticks and toys and just get used to playing with the other dogs and not the things lying around on the ground. I think time will tell on that. I keep reminding myself that he is still just a baby at nine months and he has lots of time to mature into a very good canine citizen. That said, he still snarls at the drop of a hat so he has a way to go.

George had him to the park the other day when the only other dog was a good friend of his, so George removed the muzzle and Stew had a great time just running and wrestling appropriately.

The behaviorist suggested we place him in doggie day care once a week or so with a particular trainer we know well. She would then be able to determine whether he's doing these things when we are not present, and if not she will make more suggestions. With the holidays we have not been able to schedule this so it's still our next agenda item for Stew. That will be interesting and will give us good information.

Thanks for your interest, everyone. I will see if George can put up a recent photo of our gorgeous boy.

MarnaLou

Thanks for the update, MarnaLou! This thread truly had gone to the cats, like Kathy said. And thanks for the Shadow ideas everyone!

It's so hard to know what these "babies" think. Daisy forgot she was housebroken for three days because we had so much going on at home. I thought maybe she had a bladder infection, but, that was not the case. We had to resort to remedial housebreaking. Next Christmas, we will resort to the housebreaking routine before and during our party. Kind of hard to use Nature's Miracle with 25 people wandering around the living and dining rooms.